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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
54
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Posted - 2015.02.11 08:50:34 -
[1] - Quote
I like to be able to go to trade hubs without being shot at by station hugging wardec spammers whose idea of a good fight is dropping 10 vindis on anyone stupid enough to shoot back.
Sitting on a hub 24/7 with active wardecs against every player corp in the game should not be a thing.
My other issue with player corps is how narrowminded a lot of them are. Most just seem to want to live in one little pocket of space stacking ISK and ganking anyone who wanders into their den, or sitting on the local stargate for hours at a time. Doesn't appeal to me. |

Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
56
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Posted - 2015.02.11 16:48:40 -
[2] - Quote
Elenahina wrote:Lupe Meza wrote:The better question is why don't players join player corps? This really is the crux of the matter. The problem isn't people staying in NPC corps. It's people not joining player corporations. And honestly, if they're going to stay in highsec, why should they? What possible motivation could they have to suddenly put themselves at exponentially more risk for no real gain in the rewards available? Personally, I fell that anyone who joins a strictly highsec corporation with other real life people is probably a masochist.
Nah that's not true. The people who sit on hub undocks and try to wardec everyone in local seem to have a good time. I don't understand how, but the there's certainly enough of them.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
58
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Posted - 2015.02.11 20:24:13 -
[3] - Quote
Barbara Nichole wrote:Shailagh wrote:Im trying to make ccp money here. They have data that shows people that stay in npc corps quit more often. They said corp ceos dont like recruiting noobs cuz of fear of awox, do you believe this is the main reason?
I believe people stay in npc corps (and therefor quit more often) to evade wars.
Are wars the most dangerous aspect to retention (players staying in npc corps) and therefore should be nerfed to increase player corp levels and retention?
Nerf wars to save the noobs and make people join player corps to increase retention and ccps wallet? You are wrong. The "main reason" is community and anonymity. Avoiding wardecs in an npc corp is a great plan unless you actually want to excel at the game.
"Excel at the game" is a mostly subjective statement. And a great many "veteran" and "expert" players use NPC alts to conduct their highsec affairs and circumvent the broken wardec system.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
58
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Posted - 2015.02.11 20:29:23 -
[4] - Quote
Elenahina wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Elenahina wrote:Lupe Meza wrote:The better question is why don't players join player corps? This really is the crux of the matter. The problem isn't people staying in NPC corps. It's people not joining player corporations. And honestly, if they're going to stay in highsec, why should they? What possible motivation could they have to suddenly put themselves at exponentially more risk for no real gain in the rewards available? Personally, I fell that anyone who joins a strictly highsec corporation with other real life people is probably a masochist. Nah that's not true. The people who sit on hub undocks and try to wardec everyone in local seem to have a good time. I don't understand how, but the there's certainly enough of them. Do you think it ever occurs to them to wardec each other?
You know highsec mercs have too much money and too little to do when...
https://zkillboard.com/kill/44242461/
And then they go back to blapping lone wartargets, because blingboat brawls on station get expensive real fast. People actually risk losing ships, and if they wanted to do that they wouldn't be on a hub undock all day.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
61
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Posted - 2015.02.11 23:15:32 -
[5] - Quote
I guess the upside to eliminating NPC corps would be the ability to identify and wardec griefers' alts. |

Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
63
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Posted - 2015.02.11 23:44:13 -
[6] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:Intar Medris wrote:Because they are war dodging carebears with an antisocial personality disorders who play a MMO, but don't want to deal with other people.  Who is more of a carebear? A few week old players who can barely fit ships, or the large group of veteran players clinging to hisec and deccing them? Pot, I'd like to introduce you to kettle.
They only give me one like unfortunately.
It's basically PvE except these rats drop tears, which are worth more than officer mods to a certain breed of player.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
78
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Posted - 2015.02.16 05:07:51 -
[7] - Quote
To all the folks who want to remove NPC corps or force people out via powerful incentives -
What will be the effect on the game when highsec becomes effectively the same as FW space due to certain entities wardeccing en masse? Trade hubs will become no mans lands unless you are affiliated with the dominant group of station huggers.
Forcing people with no interest in combat (or people like me that aren't part of an organization that can fight roving gangs of interceptors and HACs/strat cruisers/gilas etc.) to play target for content hungry veterans in all areas of the game is how you kill EVE.
"High-sec" would become meaningless as just like the other areas of the game it will be divided amongst blocs with the numbers and SP to control space.
Obviously CCP is never going to mess with NPC corps in this fashion because it would be monumentally stupid for player retention but that it's even suggested on a regular basis is troubling. |

Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
80
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Posted - 2015.02.16 10:57:34 -
[8] - Quote
Rhina Duna wrote:One question....
How many NPC-Alts are just neutral-Alts of Null sec players?
*Alts of any player who quite logically don't see a need to expose any of their non-combat alts to nonconsensual pvp in highsec.
Literally the whole reason wardecs are stupid they only impact people too dumb to use NPC alts to manage their hisec affairs. Mainly newbies who aren't yet familiar with ALTS Online.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
86
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Posted - 2015.02.18 06:46:48 -
[9] - Quote
Wardecs - ruinous to newbie corps, minor inconvenience and generally irrelevant to everyone else. |

Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
86
|
Posted - 2015.02.18 17:23:56 -
[10] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Wardecs - ruinous to newbie corps, minor inconvenience and generally irrelevant to everyone else. So, you'd support just removing them then?
I don't know. They drive action in highsec and can produce good fights in cases like RvB or the CODE/Marmite ruckus. But the majority of the time the war mechanism just seems a way for experienced players who are starved for "content" to explode people who really haven't got a clue what's going on. Often and in great numbers.
I mean, can you really take issue with my point? An intelligent player who gets wardecced is simply not going to show his face in highsec. "There's an alt for that." Unless it's specifically to look for a fight and he will be prepared for that. The other 95%...Start checking random highsec PVE corps for active wars you will see alot of trade hub hugging mercs on the other end who only leave the undock to hunt down meta 2 fit barges or mission boats with strategic cruisers and interceptors; you know, like they're actually hunting something dangerous. People talk about risk v reward...where's the risk in this? The killboards tell the tale.
I don't know how to fix it. The root of the problem is just human nature - tons of easy targets in highsec vs. smaller numbers of hard targets elsewhere. I think this game would be more interesting if more of the veterans played the white knight instead of the bad guy - but the latter is easier and far more rewarding to the common internet mindset that thrives on disproportionately angry reactions from the aggrieved.
I can think of two improvements right off, one of which is fairly uncontroversial.
Making the new player experience more reflective of the actual game would help a lot I think. Incorporate concepts like tracking, transversal, sig/speed tanking, different fighting styles (kite vs brawl etc.) into the NPE at least in a limited fashion. Work in some knowledge about locator agents and pvp mechanics. Make some of the career missions actually challenging at least requiring a competent fit to complete.
My other idea, to which people will just say "no," is to institute some kind of safety buffer zone around highsec station. If you want to farm kills in highsec, you have to commit outside station docking range, and whatever backup you have waiting in the wings has to do the same, so if things go badly it's no longer just a matter of de-aggressing and surviving long enough to dock. Cut down on the station games, force people to show a little more creativity than suspect baiting the undock all day or waiting for wartargets to pop up. Kills of other human players' ships and pods are more valuable than virtual monies and should be harder to achieve.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
86
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Posted - 2015.02.18 17:41:59 -
[11] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Wardecs - ruinous to newbie corps, minor inconvenience and generally irrelevant to everyone else. So, you'd support just removing them then? There is the concept of "corp lite". That is a player corp that: Cannot be part of any war. Not as an aggressor, or defender, or ally. Cannot have any in-space assets, such as a POS or a POCO. Cannot join an alliance. Has a CONCORD tax. Less than if you are in an NPC corp, but more than zero. At least it would be a place to park your rear end that is marginally better than an NPC corp. Less tax, and the chance to join a group more in-tune with your interests.
I think this is happening with "social" corps though I do not know exactly what characteristics they will have.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
138
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Posted - 2015.03.14 05:58:40 -
[12] - Quote
Should make the cost of a wardec inversely proportional to the member count and total SP of a corp.
Deccing large, high SP corps becomes cheaper while deccing small or low SP corps becomes less profitable. I think one of the CSM candidates associated with the merc community actually suggested something similar.
Would require some interesting maths to fine tune. Maybe factor in assets aswell? |

Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
138
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 06:04:58 -
[13] - Quote
Omar Alharazaad wrote:But if we don't fight for it, how are we to be assured of having enough sand to make our sand castles? I mean other people are using up bunches of sand and sometimes it gets hard to come by. Should sand hoarders be compelled to redistribute their sand so everyone has an equal amount? That doesn't seem really fair to me, as they got their sand by being crafty and knowing how the sand box operates.... but still, I mean there's only so much sand in the box, right? I'm sure I had a point at some point, but I just cannot for the life of me remember it. Something something PVP maybe.
Well, you could argue that some people get their sand by playing for a really long time and investing the effort and real world money to have a vast collection of alts distributed across multiple accounts running on 3-4 monitors in order to minimize the risk to their sand castle and give them a greater ability to break other peoples' without having to actually rely on other human beings.
You could then have a discussion about exactly how much investment in alts and excessive gaming hardware should be required to be competitive, with some unfavorable comparisons to EA thrown in.
But EVE is the fantasy refuge of manchildren who want to roleplay Ayn Rand characters, so I don't foresee that discussion being overly productive.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
139
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 09:13:42 -
[14] - Quote
Valkin Mordirc wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Should make the cost of a wardec inversely proportional to the member count and total SP of a corp.
Deccing large, high SP corps becomes cheaper while deccing small or low SP corps becomes less profitable. I think one of the CSM candidates associated with the merc community actually suggested something similar.
Would require some interesting maths to fine tune. Maybe factor in assets aswell? I hate this type of logic. Skillpoints. DO NOT matter. Skillpoints only open more options for you to use. But 150mil SP vet can still die to a 15mil SP newbrah. Edit: SP Past 10mil don't matter.
15M SP is nine months with +3 implants and a decent remap. Not exactly new. Just because a veteran carebear can die to a relatively new ninja salvager in an incursus proves nothing.
When it comes down to it, there's simply not much you can do to fight an entity that can blob you with vindis on station or undock a roaming fleet of proteus and guardians, all with near perfect skills, when you are limited to tech 1 cruisers. Undock 30 gank catalysts and a brick tanked t3 with logi support will still laugh at you. SP opens options as you said, like being able to fly ships that are simply better at dealing with a given situation. Being able to undock BS BC and tech 2/3 cruisers from every race, faction BS/BC, or fully skilled t2 logi with near perfect skills for fitting, support, weapons and drones is an undeniably huge advantage and most hisec mercs I've seen fit this description.
To say SP doesn't matter is moronic. In a pvp contest, all other things being equal, higher SP in relevant skills will win. Having yoir ship be 5-10% better in even a few categories is a huge advantage. Having more options in ships and fits to employ is a huge advantage. I don't see why this isn't obvious.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
141
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 03:33:15 -
[15] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Caladin Brood wrote:why? ok case in point, i decided to try a new char out an joined a brand new corp, social blah de blah
boom wardec boom wardec boom wardec boom wardec boom wardec boom wardec boom wardec boom wardec boom wardec boom wardec
make of it as you will, but to put it simply, to retain new players this needs to stop Sorry you had 10 wardecs like that, but they aren't that bad. If you are in the right Corp, they are easily managed and everyone continues to have fun. Wardecs aren't something to be scared of or ticked off about. The worst that happens is a lost ship and pod, both of which are expendable tools in this game anyway. But that can mostly be avoided in a good Corp.
If you are a new player with one account, losing a cruiser or BC or your first T1 battleship can be a major setback. And there's no way for a collection of such players to fight back against t3 gangs so, they get to just not play for a week or two. Some of you folk can't imagine what its like to play without a half dozen alts minimum.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
141
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 03:41:03 -
[16] - Quote
Niobe Song wrote:Why do NPC corps bother people so much? If it is just the fact that the people you wardec can jump to a NPC corp to avoid you then shouldn't you be going after that specific mechanic? Or look at wardec as a whole?
What about me being forced out of an NPC corp would make your game play experience more enjoyable?
Folk don't like the idea of there being any place in the game where they aren't allowed, or rather where it is mechanically very difficult, to blow up other people's ships. Especially when the people who gravitate to those areas tend to fly needlessly expensive things and react badly to their being exploded. I feel this myself when I ship scan a 3 month old toon in a faction fit Vindicator with 8x Fed Navy railguns. I sympathize. But I think its good for the game to have somewhere thats not a free fire zone, especially when EVE pvp basically comes down to SP and blobbing, with an occasional dash of FC competence.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
141
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 03:46:44 -
[17] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:If you are a new player with one account, losing a cruiser or BC or your first T1 battleship can be a major setback. And there's no way for a collection of such players to fight back against t3 gangs so, they get to just not play for a week or two. Some of you folk can't imagine what its like to play without a half dozen alts minimum. Yeah, a collection of new players forming a Corp in highsec is not a great idea, but not because of the risk of loss. Simply because they are unlikely to know how to manage the wardec so they can still have fun. Being new doesn't mean you are just cannon fodder. It's relatively easy for a new player, even during a war, to continue to have fun playing the game, even in highsec.
You can't undock a wardecced toon without instantly popping up on someone's watchlist, assuming your dockup station doesn't already have a neutral scout babysitting. Even then the cycle of watchlist ping > locator agent > neutral eyes pinpoint target > gank proteus vs tech 1 barge or BC takes all of 15 minutes assuming they aren't missioning in Outer Mongolia.
I agree there's alot of people running corps who aren't up to it but that's not gonna change unless corp startup requirements do.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
141
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 04:04:51 -
[18] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote: If you are a new player with one account, losing a cruiser or BC or your first T1 battleship can be a major setback. And there's no way for a collection of such players to fight back against t3 gangs so, they get to just not play for a week or two. Some of you folk can't imagine what its like to play without a half dozen alts minimum.
Never heard of the Griffon, I take it? Most wardec corps are pretty little, so even a relatively small corp can have numbers on them, and ewar leverages numbers better than almost anything else you can do in highsec. Yes, there are things you can do when decced. Just because they don't constitute being able to ignore wardecs completely doesn't mean it's not a viable way to do it.
Once again, if highsec newbie corps were filled with players who understand pvp tactics and fleet doctrines, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
141
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 04:07:30 -
[19] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:You can't undock a wardecced toon without instantly popping up on someone's watchlist, assuming your dockup station doesn't already have a neutral scout babysitting. Even then the cycle of watchlist ping > locator agent > neutral eyes pinpoint target > gank proteus vs tech 1 barge or BC takes all of 15 minutes assuming they aren't missioning in Outer Mongolia.
I agree there's alot of people running corps who aren't up to it but that's not gonna change unless corp startup requirements do.
I wish I was that important that wardec Corps were spending that much energy trying to disrupt my gameplay. Unfortunately, like 99.9% of other players, I'm not. Just applying some simple methods and common sense makes it easy to continue to have fun in highsec during a wardec. Highsec is pretty big and wardec Corps and mercs usually have multiple wars active. They are easy to avoid if that's what you want to do. We seem to have drifted off topic though. There are other threads on wardecs that this could be continued in though. Happy to do so.
It's not that hard to run a locator and move a neutral scout around in a frig on your second monitor. Especially if you know your target is a dumbass who doesn't understand how game of alts works or what locators do.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
141
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Posted - 2015.03.15 04:16:35 -
[20] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote: Once again, if highsec newbie corps were filled with players who understand pvp tactics and fleet doctrines, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
And? Are you suggesting that they simply be immune? Or that they should be able to win when playing the game incorrectly? It seems fairly simple to me. New players need to be taught, not by one another obviously. Why should a corp unsuitable for this do well? If they are weeded out, it leaves more room for the worthwhile corps to recruit.
Who's to do the teaching if all the bittervets are busy farming them for stats?
I think some sort of tweak to the wardec system that disincentivizes deccing corps low in SP and assets would solve the problem.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
141
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Posted - 2015.03.15 04:27:51 -
[21] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:It's not that hard to run a locator and move a neutral scout around in a frig on your second monitor. Especially if you know your target is a dumbass who doesn't understand how game of alts works or what locators do.
Of course it's not hard, but we just aren't that important on an individual level either. New players joining nee player Corps are going to struggle. I agree with you that it would be good if there were some minimum requirements to start a Corp. That would result in a lot of change in the view of wardecs. Bingo. A lot of the problems with "new player corps" is that the bar is set so low for corp creation. It trivializes the mechanic.
Set the bar as high as you like you'll still have old characters with only pve experience and no leadership skills to speak of starting corps, recruiting a bunch of likeminded players and newbs, getting obliterated in a cascade of wardecs and doing the same thing again a few months down the road.
It would be nice if the bittervets would make a conscious decision to challenge themselves instead of going after the easy targets, but risk-aversion is just as ingrained in their playstyle as it is in that of the "carebears."
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
149
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Posted - 2015.03.16 05:22:20 -
[22] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote: Who's to do the teaching if all the bittervets are busy farming them for stats?
Oh puh-leez. Of all of the mid-high skillpoint players in highsec right now, I very much doubt than even 10% of them are in wardec corps. It's probably lower than that. Quote: I think some sort of tweak to the wardec system that disincentivizes deccing corps low in SP and assets would solve the problem.
And I think that CCP themselves have stated that non consensual PvP has no ramifications on player retention. And that taking player freedom away to serve the purely theoretical purpose of "helping newbies" is disingenuous at best. Quote: It would be nice if the bittervets would make a conscious decision to challenge themselves instead of going after the easy targets, but risk-aversion is just as ingrained in their playstyle as it is in that of the "carebears."
And here you are mischaracterizing the motives of people you don't like. If you hadn't yet figured this out, far more people do the former, than the latter. Ever heard of Eve University? RvB?
Your first point is unprovable speculation. I'd bet that if you looked into it most of the oldest, highest SP players in highsec have at least one toon in a wardec corp.
Nobody on this forum actually cares what CCP thinks except when it lines up with their desired playstyle, so may aswell stop tossing that around. Ultimately they're in it for the money which is why we see this persistently nonsensical situation where a sizeable percentage of the server population at any given time is alts. Now those would be some interesting numbers to have access to.
RvB and Eve uni are great but they're not enough, it's mostly a few white knights herding hordes of newbies about and hoping to win by sheer number of tech 1 hulls.
And they are resources that have to be actively sought out by new players - many of the players who get slaughtered by wardecs in highsec are the type that don't want to treat a game like a second job and frankly don't understand what's happening to them.
That you have a bunch of 100m SP toons sitting in highsec engaging in regular massacre of mining barges and mission boats is laughable. I don't see how I've misrepresented anyone - the highsec griefer community looks to me like players who don't want to have to work or take risks to get kills.
Why don't you want good fights Kaarous? This is the only game I've ever seen, all whining about how "hard and dark" it is aside, where veterans are able to just stomp newbies day in and day out with minimal effort.
Nobody with a brain is impressed by your 90% efficient killboard that shows nothing but blobbing and tech 1 fit mission ships.
I should join a merc corp. It's like faction warfare where the enemy only flies terribly fit PvE ships.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
149
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Posted - 2015.03.16 05:28:37 -
[23] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote: You've literally talked yourself into a corner.
People won't join player corps because highsec corps aren't worth it compared to NPC corps.
But.
If they nerf NPC corps to make player corps more attractive, you claim that will make people quit.
What intellectually dishonest rationale. You're trying to paint a picture whereby only nerfing wardecs, already one of the weakest mechanics in the game, is the only way forward, and that's just patently untrue.
No I haven't talked myself into a corner. You are just so fixated on Nerfing NPC corps as a solution that you can't visualise anything else. Wardecs are actually an exceptionally strong mechanic against a high sec corp that has a reason to exist. (though the cost mechanic should be related to deccing corp size, not target corp size, as the current cost mechanic allows large alliances to bully small ones in high sec while their highsec assets require massive isk expenditure to attack in turn) So the solution is to create NEW gameplay which gives corps reason to exist. Not nerf existing things. And do so in such a way that the goons can't just flood it. Do I have an easy solution for this? Not at all, it's going to take some very careful game design to give highsec corps good reasons to stay together without making it worth/efficient for the null blocks just moving in and steamrolling them.
You hit on the root of the problem. Anything worth fighting for the blob will just park ontop of.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
149
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Posted - 2015.03.16 05:53:52 -
[24] - Quote
Valkin Mordirc wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
15M SP is nine months with +3 implants and a decent remap. Not exactly new. Just because a veteran carebear can die to a relatively new ninja salvager in an incursus proves nothing.
When it comes down to it, there's simply not much you can do to fight an entity that can blob you with vindis on station or undock a roaming fleet of proteus and guardians, all with near perfect skills, when you are limited to tech 1 cruisers. Undock 30 gank catalysts and a brick tanked t3 with logi support will still laugh at you. SP opens options as you said, like being able to fly ships that are simply better at dealing with a given situation. Being able to undock BS BC and tech 2/3 cruisers from every race, faction BS/BC, or fully skilled t2 logi with near perfect skills for fitting, support, weapons and drones is an undeniably huge advantage and most hisec mercs I've seen fit this description.
To say SP doesn't matter is moronic. In a pvp contest, all other things being equal, higher SP in relevant skills will win. Having yoir ship be 5-10% better in even a few categories is a huge advantage. Having more options in ships and fits to employ is a huge advantage. I don't see why this isn't obvious.
SP was a random number, Regardless. Let me put this way. Your out in your aweome 70+ Mill Toon. Your in Dodi. And you're flexxing your muscles with a Kronos. I'ts PVE fit but. Hey you can still tank a **** ton in Bastion. Then you find some on yellow floating around station. He's only been playing for a year. And he's in a Harbinger/prophcey. So you shoot at him thinking you have an easy kill. https://zkillboard.com/kill/45013722/
That you lose it. To a character who starting playing at the start of 2014. That what I mean by SP doesn't matter. SP opens doors for more options to counter with yeah. It's a big advantage. But it's nobody brings along Every ship wherever they go you know? I have an alt out in lowsec that is 85mil SP. This character stays in Highsec and has 25mil sp. If My Alt and this Character went head to head. Both in Cruiser. Do you think the 85mil SP Alt would win? If you say yes, I would kindly say you are wrong and possible right. Valkin is spec into cruisers. Can fly every single one near perfect. So can the alt. So even though the alt is from 2011. And this one is from 2013. You don't really know who will win. 1v1. Does that make more sense now?
100M SP wins. Just look at the other toon's KB, 25m isn't enough to skill into every racial t2/t3 cruiser and every weapon system to a competent degree, you should easily be able to work out a counter to his likely fit. Whereas the 100M toon can bring any race t3/t2 or faction to the fight with full skills in every related area. 100M has a huge advantage because he has a full range of options and is thus totally inpredictable in what he can undock.
I have 23M sp, if someone looks at my killboard they know I'm bringing a gallente cruiser or BS. That's critical knowledge and there's fuckall I can do about it.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
149
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Posted - 2015.03.16 06:00:16 -
[25] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote: Your first point is unprovable speculation.
... which I said specifically in response to your "all the bittervets are just farming noobs", which was an obvious lie. Don't make **** up, and then claim that anyone correcting your obvious lie is in the wrong. Quote: RvB and Eve uni are great but they're not enough, it's mostly a few white knights herding hordes of newbies about and hoping to win by sheer number of tech 1 hulls.
So the **** what? They have tons of fun doing that, why are you spitting at it? That's how newbies can be effective, or would you rather they just mine for the first year of playing the game? Quote: And they are resources that have to be actively sought out by new players - many of the players who get slaughtered by wardecs in highsec are the type that don't want to treat a game like a second job and frankly don't understand what's happening to them.
Oh, bullshit. The new player help channel exists, and just about anyone you ask about it will point you towards one of those groups. Quote: Why don't you want good fights Kaarous?
Why should your definition of "good fight" be permitted to tie my hands? Or anyone else's? Why are you an emotional fascist, trying to force how you want to play the game on other people?
A good fight is one that involves an opponent who has the knowledge, experience and resources to be a challenge. Also known as "people highsec griefers don't shoot at if they can possibly avoid it."
How is shooting the clueless in badly fit t1 ships any different than shooting red crosses or rocks? I just don't understand why you think its such an important part of the game. |

Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
153
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Posted - 2015.03.22 06:28:39 -
[26] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:If a person doesn't want 'unwanted interaction', why would they play a game where unwanted interaction is at the heart of it's design? It's like jumping into an ocean then protesting how wet it is. Because it isn't? It's always wanted interaction for at least one side. Jenn aSide wrote:I just can't say it enough, most people who play EVE have a certain predisposition and mind set that allows them to fit in with the game. Some people who play don't but play out of spite (or because they are those types that 'like a challenge' and believe they can 'change things for the better' not unlike that woman everyone knows that always finds herself with some crappy/stupid/abusive dude who has 'potential' lol). But most people who are not cut out for the game try it, realize they do't like it and quit early, and they are smart to do so. Facewalling an SP wall is closer to a masochism than predisposition, and plenty of people have that. Jenn aSide wrote:Themepark games (ie most mmos) are the ones that concentrate on your comfort and want you to be 'safe' from unwanted interaction. That's why I hate most mmos and love EVE, I can take care of myself perfectly fine and don't need nanny state level coddling to exist. So when people come on here and basically advocate for more handholding (in a video game...) I always ask them the same thing: Why not play a game you actually like and leave this game that we actually like to us?
Don't confuse your own goals. Your goal is a steady source of easy targets to grief dec. Which is why you don't like NPC corps. Because they won't have bothered you in the slightest otherwise - nobody here advocated "handholding", and anyone can tell you in which safespot on your body you should stuff your armor fit drake of an opinion about how they should play. People play for fun. If eve is fun for them, who are you to tell them to go away and have their fun anywhere else, when you are the main beneficiary of them having fun here? You already have unprecedented capabilities to steal the fun away from them, in fact, there are too many of them right now. So what if they play like in a theme park game? "Press on this doll where gnome touched you" (c). They pay their subs, they pay your plex, show some appreciation. Bottom line is, unless all you need is an easy target to grief, NPC corps won't have possibly bothered you. Because all they do is provide protection from just one way of being griefed. And unless you do it, you shouldn't care about it. And they don't decrease retention half as much as people like you do, if you actually care about them. And here I will repeat the line which got routinely moderatorbiased out: The retention of people who are ready to be content in form of tolerating the process of repeatedly hitting their face against "SP wall" is already peak. The retention of people who do not wish to be bittervet food for their money is what's in trouble. There are only TWO types of content available to a newbie currently - mining and exploration, and both got rekt for the sake of nullsec retention already, so it's no freaking miracle that they couldn't possibly keep a newbie occupied for any reasonable period necessary to become involved. That's why NPSI crap is worthless, because losing ships sucks and newbies from not already-perfect-retention category would quit instantly on this. What's needed is more engaging content. Epic ark is pretty good, but it's short, and it's practically one-of-a-kind. New newbie anoms might be a good idea, but I haven't seen them yet to make sure. But as long as there are only 2 rekt professions remain a regular-game-mid-term or eve-short-term choices for a newbie not wishing to be a bittervet food, the retention is going to suffer. Either we need to unrekt those (not happening to mining, don't know about exploration), or introduce new ones.
To be fair, you can also find an accepting blob like E-uni or brave or an FW corp and ***** on killmails in a t1 fit frigate. You can also make ALOT of ISK in FW in a t1 frigate.
Some people (myself included) don't get super excited about being +1 to a blob. If we get a decent fleet scrap it's nice but it's more often just running down and melting small gangs and solo targets.
Inb4 "SP DOESN'T MATTER" for the thousandth time.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
153
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Posted - 2015.03.22 06:36:37 -
[27] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Gimme Sake wrote:You don't understand, let me explain: they pvp only in high sec. Yeah, there's no pvp in lowsec or nullsec. It's a myth. None of which really has much to do with the topic.
Most of the people crying about NPC corps are highsec "pvp'ers" who feel they are being unfairly deprived of easy targets. Most people who do their shooting in other areas of space against things not shittanked mining barges could care less about NPC corps.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
153
|
Posted - 2015.03.22 06:39:39 -
[28] - Quote
Eli Stan wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: And what keeps veterans from creating characters to counter the supposed carebear influence?
Because we actually like to play the game. Those of us who enjoy wardecs and PvP cannot do so in an NPC corp barring suicide ganking. We are effectively forbidden from interacting with new players at the basic stage of development. We can't? (scratches head in confusion) Then what's all this PvP I and my fleet have been engaging in? While at the same time welcoming newbies who stop by, even chatting in NPC corp chat? Stop by Syndicate a week from Saturday, you'll see a sizeable fleet of NPC corp members, newbies and veterans alike, engaging in a ton of PvP, blowing stuff up and being blown up and having a great time at it. Quote:That needs to change, that's my whole point in all of this. The new player experience needs to stop being exclusively carebear friendly Definitely. Quote:and that means changing NPC corps. Not at all.
You're talking about people who can fight back competently. That's not the objective here.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
154
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Posted - 2015.03.22 06:52:07 -
[29] - Quote
Valkin Mordirc wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:[quote=Valkin Mordirc]
100M SP wins. Just look at the other toon's KB, 25m isn't enough to skill into every racial t2/t3 cruiser and every weapon system to a competent degree, you should easily be able to work out a counter to his likely fit. Whereas the 100M toon can bring any race t3/t2 or faction to the fight with full skills in every related area. 100M has a huge advantage because he has a full range of options and is thus totally inpredictable in what he can undock.
I have 23M sp, if someone looks at my killboard they know I'm bringing a gallente cruiser or BS. That's critical knowledge and there's fuckall I can do about it.
No it doesn't. There is a finite of SP that will go into Cruiser and fitting skills. A 100mil SP Will not have EVERY ship at his disposal. I have over 15bil in Hard assets. But I have to go TO those assets to use them. If I'm roaming. I DO NOT have access to them. Why is that so hard to understand? NOT every fight happens on the undock. Not ever fight I'm in a ship I'm perfectly spec in. Also I have 35mil, I don't pay attention to SP counter, because I know it's not relevant.
I can't do the math right now on the SP total for all 4 racial cruiser lines up to T3 with all critical skills and weapons including full drones. I suspect it's rather alot. 100M SP should have it covered. 25M will be lacking. If you pvp in highsec with 15B in assets and don't have a decent selection of advanced/faction cruisers at every hub you are doing it wrong.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
157
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Posted - 2015.03.22 08:48:41 -
[30] - Quote
Valkin Mordirc wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
I can't do the math right now on the SP total for all 4 racial cruiser lines up to T3 with all critical skills and weapons including full drones. I suspect it's rather alot. 100M SP should have it covered. 25M will be lacking. If you pvp in highsec with 15B in assets and don't have a decent selection of advanced/faction cruisers at every hub you are doing it wrong.
I have a lot of things in a certain Trade hub, your probably right there.  Asides from that. and being completely asides the point, and being low blow...bastard. Also if you can't do the math then your purely speculation is just that speculation. I can fly every cruiser near perfect. From Cerb to Zealot. By near perfect it's mean the weapon specialization but that 2% is bullshit I don't wanna deal with, You are ignoring that fact that I don't have 60 bowheads following me at all times. Why is that hard to understand? Stop cherry picking and realize when to comes to a point. SP ceases to matter, if you truly believe that SP is a critical part of Combat, I'm very sorry but it's keep you from getting better.
It takes like, 5 minutes to make a couple of jumps and reship. Besides, you are hunting your targets with neutral scouts you should know their ship type(s) and likely fit before undocking.
I know for a fact 25M SP will not give you anywhere near mastery of every racial cruiser line because I have 23M and I'm not even done with Gallente. Give or take a few million SP due to my skilling into frigates and level IV of Gallente BS/BC and large hybrids, the point still stands. Being able to undock ANY tech 2/3 cruiser with near perfect skills is a major advantage. I don't really see how anyone can take issue with that.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
366
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Posted - 2015.05.22 21:03:12 -
[31] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: Playing in a 1 man corp and playing alone are not equivalent as you yourself stated.
I didn't state that. NPC corps are still social, a newish player in a one man corp is a very lonely way to play EVE. Tyberius Franklin wrote: If tax is the issue then going to a corp with similar taxes isn't a solution. If all a corp has to offer is taxes there is no reason to join even without npc corps as part of the decision. We might know that player corps offer more than that but to a huge number of highsec players all they see the risk of wardecs and no reward for facing that risk. In reality the chances of being wardeced is slim to non but these people belive that it will happen on a bi-weekly basis. To them they see the 1% less tax as simply not worth it. If NPC corps had 20% tax then the reward is more clear to them.
Nonsense.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
367
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Posted - 2015.05.22 23:31:34 -
[32] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Shimoto wrote:The two groups are quite different and I don't think encouraging one group to cross over to the other will be particularly successful. 90% of new players leave the game in their first 30 days. The status quo isn't very successful. What's wrong with CCP aiming, not to force anyone into a player corp, but to create an environment where that group is able to more easily find the type of content that the other 10% move into? That is not only player corp focused. That's just one thing that correlates with higher retention. CCP have stated several times the types of activities that correlate with players subscribing beyond 30 days including a higher use of chat channels, trading on the market, taking part in fleets, being involved in combat pvp, using voice comms, using contracts. It's not that these things aren't done within npc starter corps, it's more that the nature of starter corps doesn't provide an environment where these things are part of being in the corp for all players. Many of these things are more likely to occur naturally in player Corps. CCP isn't out to limit your individual choice. That you subscribed and are happy in an NPC Corp is great. However there's nothing wrong with CCP also trying to retain the part of that 90% that would stay if they can more easily find the type of content that correlates with higher retention. This whole thing isn't about any of us that subscribe and become long term players. There's no need to encourage us to cross over or do anything different. It's about trying to get a slice of that 90% for whom that initial experience isn't engaging enough.
I think the notion that involvement with player corps leads to greater retention is erroneous.
Involvement with any number of engaged, knowledgeable players offering a constructive experience (not just blowing up newbie's first retriever or mission running brutix) is what will cut through the seemingly insurmountable challenges facing a new player.
For example when I first started there was a guy in my rookie corp that would take newbies into lvl 4 missions in mobs of T1 frigates. That was a real, constructive learning experience. Most player corps in highsec are frankly less educational than that single experience.
Unfortunately, I can't shake the sneaking suspicion that all the attempts to force PvE into player corps via oppressive tax rates are just a thinly veiled demand that CCP provide more easy targets for highsec pvp.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
367
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Posted - 2015.05.23 00:55:08 -
[33] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:I think the notion that involvement with player corps leads to greater retention is erroneous.
Involvement with any number of engaged, knowledgeable players offering a constructive experience (not just blowing up newbie's first retriever or mission running brutix) is what will cut through the seemingly insurmountable challenges facing a new player. On the first part, CCP's data suggests otherwise and even if it didn't, it doesn't matter. CCP have said that players who take part in more social aspects early have higher retention. That was the correlation they have referred to. That includes many aspects other than pvp. Market trading, using chat channels, taking part in fleets, combat pvp, manufacturing and selling, using voice comms have all been stated by CCP as types of activities that retained players take part in early and CCP are interested in trying to expose that 90% of unretained players to those kinds of experiences. There is nothing about a new player Corp or the old tutorials that exposed players to that. New players try the game and end up playing solo without structures around them that actively encourage trying those more social activities that some of them might like. That's where the move to player Corps is one way that CCP have also stated, provides greater exposure to those things. Being in a player Corp isn't itself a cause for higher retention. Player corps however do have much higher rates of use of voice comms, use of chat channels, fleet operations, pvp activities, industry activities, etc., especially when compared to starter corps. Some starter Corps also have many of those things (eg. CAS), but it's not part of what the structure of a starter corp is in comparison to what is acheived in the organisation of player Corps many of which also go way beyond that with irc servers, slack teams, forums, wikis, new player starter kits, skill plans, training sessions, teamspeak, mumble, buyback programs, fitted ship contracts, 1-on-1 mentors, instructional videos, ship replacement programs for new players and specific targets they aim for. Starter Corps provide minimal input to helping people find that sort of content, where player Corps often include all of that content. So it's not about player corps as such. If starter corps provided that environment as part of what they did, then the idea of encouraging people to move to player corps wouldn't need to be considered. But they don't, where player corps provide that opportunity that CCP are trying to encourage (as stated by CCP). On the second part, I totally agree. Kind of what this is all about.
The whole point of my post was that you're just looking at NPC corps vs player corps and deciding NPC corps are the problem when in reality most highsec player corps are worse than NPC corps, no amount of raising the bar vis a vis corp creation requirements is going to change that, and in all cases it's the individual players that newbie interacts with that matter most.
Focusing on NPC corps as the root of all evil is just highsec pvp carebears wanting to force pve ships to play target while they continue to hide their neutral logi/scout/transport alts in NPC corps because tax rates don't affect those functions at all. Start talking about forcing those players to expose their alt minions supplementing their wardec toon to the same risk and I'll be more agreeable.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
367
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Posted - 2015.05.23 01:02:20 -
[34] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:If, for example, wars could not be dodged, and people were forced to use the surrender mechanic as it was intended.
Within half a year, the highsec corps that were left would be ones that you know have passed the test, and could be counted on to be worthwhile to their members.
Pointing people towards good corps is all well and good as an idea, but enabling the removal of the oh-so-many bad corps from the pool is far more important.
So, casual players, new players and people that don't run five alts need not apply. I will say this for the thousandth time if you want to demonstrate your pvp prowess there are soooooo many people outside highsec who will happily oblige you. You are never going to stop idiots from making corps. You can slaughter all the newbies they recruit and forcibly shutter the corp and they'll just do it again in a few months with the same bunch.
Also I think It's pretty neat that NPC militia corps have no taxes, literally just found that out.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
368
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Posted - 2015.05.23 01:58:05 -
[35] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote: So, casual players, new players and people that don't run five alts need not apply.
Not with an attitude like yours, no. Everyone else is welcome.
My attitude of honesty about the level of competence required to murder casuals in highsec? I guess your arguments make sense to people who don't read or check killboards, but you should really know better.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
368
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Posted - 2015.05.23 02:01:49 -
[36] - Quote
Yuri Ostrovskoy wrote:Conrad Makbure wrote:Local chat scammers/spammers stay in NPC corporation for the safety. I would like to see them pushed out though. See this is a valid counter point. I agree 100%. This side of the npc/highsec debacle is completely abused, and needs to be addressed in a productive manner.
They don't leave station so it's irrelevant. I did say that all the bittervet combat support and hauler alts hiding in NPC corps should be at risk also, rather than ONLY the people flying industrials or mission boats in highsec as their primary activity.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
368
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Posted - 2015.05.23 03:02:51 -
[37] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote: They don't leave station so it's irrelevant. I did say that all the bittervet combat support and hauler alts hiding in NPC corps should be at risk also, rather than ONLY the people flying industrials or mission boats in highsec as their primary activity.
Risk vs reward purely reflects against income generating activities.
Well no. Risk vs. Reward should apply to kills and other forms of content more than meaningless space bux.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
368
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Posted - 2015.05.23 03:05:55 -
[38] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Syn Shi wrote:I have played Eve for 2 years...solo. According to CCPs analysis I should have been gone...but I am still here.
So much for you data. No, I don't believe that is a valid conclusion from CCPs analysis. At Fanfest this year CCP Rise gave an anecdote about another CCP employee who had joined the game many years ago and had happily played in his starter Corp since then, involved in a range of highsec PvE activities. It is a perfectly fine choice. However, when all the data is aggregated, that style of play is not the most successful way to produce long term subscribed players. For those it suits, it's great. For the bulk of people, other experiences seem to be more likely to result in long term subscription. The issue causing the butting of heads now seems to be the idea that the CCP employee in Rise's story should, by some viewpoints, be barred from leaving his NPC corp, or at least from starting a corp even for like minded pilots unless dramatically changing to a more confrontational response to aggression such as a wardec. Basically one party is saying that because that is not the optimal course, alongside possibly some other information, one following that course should not be allowed to make or be in a corp.
Actually what they want is a 20-30% NPC corp tax rate or one sufficient to make PvE without exposure to wardecs impossible. Basically, they want every player in highsec that is there with the goal of farming ISK to be open to attack. NPC alts of characters farming in other areas of space secured by their respective blob will be unaffected. |

Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
368
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 19:47:29 -
[39] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote: They don't leave station so it's irrelevant. I did say that all the bittervet combat support and hauler alts hiding in NPC corps should be at risk also, rather than ONLY the people flying industrials or mission boats in highsec as their primary activity.
Risk vs reward purely reflects against income generating activities. Well no. Risk vs. Reward should apply to kills and other forms of content more than meaningless space bux. It already does, that's what the Loot Fairy is for in the first place. But income generating activities, those things that you can do that add assets into the game world, those are what risk vs reward primarily targets. It exists to combat rampant inflation, because the economy is driven by loss.
I don't think there is a lack of loss in EVE. And I don't see how you can view inflation as such a serious problem, over farming is an issue that corrects itself as the more people that are farming a specific resource the more the value of that resource will drop. It's a self correcting problem.
I haven't heard of CCP's pet economist talking about rampant inflation in the money supply as a mortal threat to the game's economy. So I'm going to stand by my opinion that killmails, bragging rights, content that has intrinsic value greater than pixel dollars and is the reason most of us are here, should be more subject to risk vs reward than ISK. I don't see what the loot fairy has to do with anything as that's just a determinant of how much ISK can be generated through PvP and most PvP doesn't involve ISK generation as the primary objective.
I'm sorry I look at killboards and I don't really see a devastating lack of destruction in EVE. What I do see is a set of players accustomed to doing their destruction in high sec that see that becoming more difficult and requiring a little more effort, and they are understandably not happy about it. If I'd been playing longer and developed an entire playing style around violencing stupid in highsec I'd no doubt feel the same way.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
372
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Posted - 2015.05.24 21:45:16 -
[40] - Quote
Nevil Oscillator wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote: What I do see is a set of players accustomed to doing their destruction in high sec that see that becoming more difficult and requiring a little more effort, and they are understandably not happy about it. If I'd been playing longer and developed an entire playing style around violencing stupid in highsec I'd no doubt feel the same way.
The answer is nerf high sec so that everyone can get in on the action and start shooting unarmed industrial ships to give them more competition.
Can't tell if serious.
Even after a series of well deserved nerfs, highsec PvP is INSANELY easy. And once you start bringing alts and multiboxing into the equation, it becomes less challenging than a good bit of PvE content. Untanked industrials and barges continue to litter killboards, and one of C&P's better known miscreants has inflicted billions of ISK in damage on at least a dozen highsec badcorps in the past month alone. |
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
372
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Posted - 2015.05.25 00:39:45 -
[41] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote: Can't tell if serious.
Even after a series of well deserved nerfs, highsec PvP is INSANELY easy. And once you start bringing alts and multiboxing into the equation, it becomes less challenging than a good bit of PvE content. Untanked industrials and barges continue to litter killboards, and one of C&P's better known miscreants has inflicted billions of ISK in damage on at least a dozen highsec badcorps in the past month alone.
Not sure if you're serious. Hisec PVP is an environment where there are predators who themselves are not prey to other predators (for the most part). The option to gank gankers has always been open, and with -5 sec status and below any pilot can freely engage a ganker with no repercussions (except retaliation by an elite PVPer!). These predators are hunting prey who do not scout their gates, tank their ships, or follow any one of the hundreds of writeups and forum posts you can find to avoid getting ganked. Do you know why a ganker does not tank his ship against aggression from another player? Because the player base has shown itself to be too timid to proactively aggress the ganker (instead of waiting for GCC to kick in). Player vs. player is "insanely easy" because other players have created this situation. It has nothing to do with the rules as they exist.
How can I freely engage them with no repercussions when they're always docked up waiting out timers? I've got better things to do than camping out in a system for hours scouting belts, trying to guess which unranked retriever will be targeted next, just so I can possibly kill a 10M ISK destroyer and empty pod before his target pops.
It's like you think I don't understand how ganking works, or that it's done on dedicated alts with empty pods in ships whose loss is already a given.
There's always going to be easy targets in highsec, whether they be new, casuals, slow learners or just plain dumb. Why are you so attached to farming kills off that crowd endlessly?
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
382
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Posted - 2015.05.28 19:36:15 -
[42] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:
NPC Corps are fine.
I don't really have an argument with you then. NPC corps are a side issue within the greater problem of player retention and mostly a red herring thrown out by highsec pvp all stars that want more things to shoot.
Terrible, terrible people forming player corps in highsec, recruiting newbies and then giving them absolutely no guidance on how to not to get violenced by wardeccers and gankers are a much bigger issue. That's player corps and the people who start them. A new player experience which leaves people completely unprepared for the dark side of EVE (scamming, wardecs, the prevalence and utility of alts for griefing, ganking) is another problem.
But I don't see a way to solve the first problem beyond some kind of intricate barrier to corp creation.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
382
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Posted - 2015.05.28 20:57:01 -
[43] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:
NPC Corps are fine.
I don't really have an argument with you then. NPC corps are a side issue within the greater problem of player retention and mostly a red herring thrown out by highsec pvp all stars that want more things to shoot. Terrible, terrible people forming player corps in highsec, recruiting newbies and then giving them absolutely no guidance on how to not to get violenced by wardeccers and gankers are a much bigger issue. That's player corps and the people who start them. A new player experience which leaves people completely unprepared for the dark side of EVE (scamming, wardecs, the prevalence and utility of alts for griefing, ganking) is another problem. But I don't see a way to solve the first problem beyond some kind of intricate barrier to corp creation. It's really a case of casualism and/or min/max. Many of the people that test Eve, likely have come from another MMO. Their experience, prior to Eve, revolved around games with zones that are dedicated to non-PVP without consent. They are also familiar with level grinding, which in many games, can get you from newb to end game content in a month. As we are all aware, this is not the case in Eve. There is no end game content and there is no option for pure safety. That said,'I am NOT suggesting a change for the formula in order to support this. The market would fall apart as most players, including those with alts in high, would gravitate their characters towards this area. However, I do not support the alternative of taking away safety, as it is. This would not only deter new players, but would likely cause the dropping of many so to say "carebears" as well as cause alt accounts to drop, due to lack of safer gameplay. As far as retention of players, both new and old, I think this is an issue of two cases. 1) community - There's got to be social interaction. This is not an issue of corps(player or NPC), but instead the fault of the players. We have essentially built a barrier inhibiting player interaction. Remember the Eve Moto of "Trust no one"? Well, this has the alternate effect of inhibiting the social interaction with new players. Not very many people want to help a new bro, as you can't trust them. 2) Content - we're all aware that it takes a bit of time to become efficient at combat. This leaves mining as the most effective activity a newbro can involve themselves in for at least the first two weeks. Even after that, their combat efficiency is extremely limit. However, once you've developed efficient combat skills, you still likely have developed funding, so PVP involvement is extremely limited, unless you manage to get into an alliance with a ship hand out program. If you do manage to get interest from an alliance, there's about a 50-50 chance that you're being baited. Content can be corrected by providing more low level and high level content in all security areas. As far as community, well... Eve players are a$$holes...
Mining is not the most efficient ISK generation method for a newbie it's just the most obvious.
You are correct that the burden falls largely on existing players. You can't slaughter/scam people relentlessly and then come to the forums spouting off about the retention problem. It's all well and good to say "it's their responsibility to learn the game" but frankly that is a shortsighted and stupid mindset that will result eventually in nothing left of EVE but a few thousand bittervets chasing each other's alts around.
And with all the talk about how many people leave in the first month I'm surprised no one has stated the obvious -
This is a very complex game with a famously vicious learning curve and the skill training system is quite daunting for a day one player. I was there, not terribly long ago. I remind mousing over various ships and modules and then looking at the training time under "requirements" and just being crushed. And then I realized I would need a legion of support skills even once those requirements were met. So it's fair to say you are going to have a significant percentage of the people that try this game promptly fleeing for their lives and sanity. With this thought in mind, 90% doesn't sound nearly as unreasonable.
Beyond that, if you want new players, act like it. You guys with a dozen alts could consider rolling another one and leaving him in a rookie corp to actually do something about the problem. There's a thought.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
387
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Posted - 2015.05.29 01:44:30 -
[44] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote: But I don't see a way to solve the first problem beyond some kind of intricate barrier to corp creation.
You solve a player created problem with other players. Specifically, those gankers and wardeccers you so despise. Bad corps should die on the vine, but in the ridiculous safety that is highsec, that's far too difficult to do. Incentivize conflict, make it more accessible and more widespread, and watch these bad corps die.
I don't despise gankers all that much, nor even war deccers per se. I have an issue with people flying strategic cruisers who slaughter bads in shitfit barges and railgun battleships and think that makes them elite pvp authorities, and wonder why "HURRDURR duh careebears won't undock CCP make them."
This is a game. Not everyone is going to invest the same amount of time, effort, or real world cash that you do. In light of that it is unreasonable to expect people to compete on your terms in every area of the game. I don't see a problem with giving people a relatively safe place to make ISK where only egregious stupidity will kill you.
Bad corps are never going to stop being created. And you wouldn't want that to happen anyway, because then who would you shoot? |

Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
389
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 20:48:56 -
[45] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote: Wardecs are content.
Only for one side. The people being wardecced either watch their retriever get melted by a proteus every time they undock until they run out of ISK, or they just don't undock for a week.
The manner in which wardecs are generally conducted makes them extremely uninteresting for the target in almost every case.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
393
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 03:00:06 -
[46] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote: You're so much more useful as targets instead.
But they look like people. You don't shoot people. In fact you haven't shot anything in 2015 except a POS. I don't think they need to fear you, really. No sticks and stones. Just empty bravado. Mr Epeen  Well you see, when you can't awox anymore, your combat capabilities are pretty limited... Kinda hard to kill people when you don't know how they're fit. More like it's rather hard to juggle overheats and active reps with an infant on my lap, but push whatever narrative you two desire. I did have a rather bracing time in Squiddie FW space the other day, but not on this guy, his Gallente standings aren't good enough to join. I have to have Diplo to max just to enter their space anymore. Although it is rather fun to see a dedicated forum alt play at **** measuring with killboards.
Which side? I want to shoot at you.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
393
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 19:02:33 -
[47] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote: Only for one side.
Getting blown up is content every bit as much as blowing up someone else.
You're missing the point.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
394
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 20:21:13 -
[48] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote: Only for one side.
Getting blown up is content every bit as much as blowing up someone else. You're missing the point. No, I'm really not. My dumb ass lost an Ashimmu to a corp we decced the other day just a few hours ago, and it was still content, I still had fun, and I still acknowledged their "gf" in local. That's called playing the game, and being a good sport. In other news, as mentioned before, trying to play EVE with a baby on your lap is tricky.
Why did you dec a corp that could shoot back? Sounds like a target selection error to me. And where were your neutral logi?
If you need to lessons in highsec mercing I'd be glad to help. Lend me the services of your neutral scouts and I'll show you how it's done. |

Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
394
|
Posted - 2015.05.31 00:23:42 -
[49] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:And where were your neutral logi?
I don't use any, I never have.
Damn you guys are getting wrecked by that corp. Siegfried lost a brutix and 2 logi a few hours after the Ashimmu. Do you need some help?
That kind of showing won't get you a write-up on minerbumping I'm afraid.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
394
|
Posted - 2015.05.31 00:46:23 -
[50] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:It shouldn't even surprise me that someone like you can't figure out that fun isn't measured in isk.
Brawling a properly fit rattlesnake is not my idea of fun. What were you thinking?
Oh. You tried to eat a bait Maller. |
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