This really is the crux of the matter. The problem isn't people staying in NPC corps. It's people not joining player corporations. And honestly, if they're going to stay in highsec, why should they? What possible motivation could they have to suddenly put themselves at exponentially more risk for no real gain in the rewards available?

Personally, I fell that anyone who joins a strictly highsec corporation with other real life people is probably a masochist.

You are wrong. The "main reason" is community and anonymity. Avoiding wardecs in an npc corp is a great plan unless you actually want to excel at the game.

Do you think it ever occurs to them to wardec each other?

Who is more of a carebear? A few week old players who can barely fit ships, or the large group of veteran players clinging to hisec and deccing them?

Pot, I'd like to introduce you to kettle.

One question....

How many NPC-Alts are just neutral-Alts of Null sec players?

So, you'd support just removing them then?

There is the concept of "corp lite". That is a player corp that:

Cannot be part of any war. Not as an aggressor, or defender, or ally.
Cannot have any in-space assets, such as a POS or a POCO.
Cannot join an alliance.
Has a CONCORD tax. Less than if you are in an NPC corp, but more than zero.

At least it would be a place to park your rear end that is marginally better than an NPC corp. Less tax, and the chance to join a group more in-tune with your interests.

But if we don't fight for it, how are we to be assured of having enough sand to make our sand castles? I mean other people are using up bunches of sand and sometimes it gets hard to come by. Should sand hoarders be compelled to redistribute their sand so everyone has an equal amount? That doesn't seem really fair to me, as they got their sand by being crafty and knowing how the sand box operates.... but still, I mean there's only so much sand in the box, right?
I'm sure I had a point at some point, but I just cannot for the life of me remember it.
Something something PVP maybe.

I hate this type of logic.

Skillpoints. DO NOT matter.

Skillpoints only open more options for you to use. But 150mil SP vet can still die to a 15mil SP newbrah.

Edit: SP Past 10mil don't matter.

Sorry you had 10 wardecs like that, but they aren't that bad.

If you are in the right Corp, they are easily managed and everyone continues to have fun.

Wardecs aren't something to be scared of or ticked off about. The worst that happens is a lost ship and pod, both of which are expendable tools in this game anyway. But that can mostly be avoided in a good Corp.

Why do NPC corps bother people so much? If it is just the fact that the people you wardec can jump to a NPC corp to avoid you then shouldn't you be going after that specific mechanic? Or look at wardec as a whole?

What about me being forced out of an NPC corp would make your game play experience more enjoyable?

Yeah, a collection of new players forming a Corp in highsec is not a great idea, but not because of the risk of loss. Simply because they are unlikely to know how to manage the wardec so they can still have fun.

Being new doesn't mean you are just cannon fodder. It's relatively easy for a new player, even during a war, to continue to have fun playing the game, even in highsec.

Never heard of the Griffon, I take it? Most wardec corps are pretty little, so even a relatively small corp can have numbers on them, and ewar leverages numbers better than almost anything else you can do in highsec.

Yes, there are things you can do when decced. Just because they don't constitute being able to ignore wardecs completely doesn't mean it's not a viable way to do it.

I wish I was that important that wardec Corps were spending that much energy trying to disrupt my gameplay. Unfortunately, like 99.9% of other players, I'm not.

Just applying some simple methods and common sense makes it easy to continue to have fun in highsec during a wardec. Highsec is pretty big and wardec Corps and mercs usually have multiple wars active. They are easy to avoid if that's what you want to do.

We seem to have drifted off topic though. There are other threads on wardecs that this could be continued in though. Happy to do so.

And?

Are you suggesting that they simply be immune? Or that they should be able to win when playing the game incorrectly?

It seems fairly simple to me. New players need to be taught, not by one another obviously. Why should a corp unsuitable for this do well? If they are weeded out, it leaves more room for the worthwhile corps to recruit.

Bingo. A lot of the problems with "new player corps" is that the bar is set so low for corp creation. It trivializes the mechanic.

Oh puh-leez.

Of all of the mid-high skillpoint players in highsec right now, I very much doubt than even 10% of them are in wardec corps. It's probably lower than that.




And I think that CCP themselves have stated that non consensual PvP has no ramifications on player retention.

And that taking player freedom away to serve the purely theoretical purpose of "helping newbies" is disingenuous at best.



And here you are mischaracterizing the motives of people you don't like.

If you hadn't yet figured this out, far more people do the former, than the latter. Ever heard of Eve University? RvB?

No I haven't talked myself into a corner.
You are just so fixated on Nerfing NPC corps as a solution that you can't visualise anything else.

Wardecs are actually an exceptionally strong mechanic against a high sec corp that has a reason to exist. (though the cost mechanic should be related to deccing corp size, not target corp size, as the current cost mechanic allows large alliances to bully small ones in high sec while their highsec assets require massive isk expenditure to attack in turn)
So the solution is to create NEW gameplay which gives corps reason to exist. Not nerf existing things.
And do so in such a way that the goons can't just flood it.

Do I have an easy solution for this? Not at all, it's going to take some very careful game design to give highsec corps good reasons to stay together without making it worth/efficient for the null blocks just moving in and steamrolling them.

SP was a random number, Regardless.


Let me put this way.

Your out in your aweome 70+ Mill Toon. Your in Dodi. And you're flexxing your muscles with a Kronos. I'ts PVE fit but. Hey you can still tank a **** ton in Bastion.

Then you find some on yellow floating around station. He's only been playing for a year. And he's in a Harbinger/prophcey. So you shoot at him thinking you have an easy kill.

https://zkillboard.com/kill/45013722/

That you lose it. To a character who starting playing at the start of 2014.

That what I mean by SP doesn't matter.

SP opens doors for more options to counter with yeah. It's a big advantage. But it's nobody brings along Every ship wherever they go you know?

I have an alt out in lowsec that is 85mil SP. This character stays in Highsec and has 25mil sp. If My Alt and this Character went head to head. Both in Cruiser. Do you think the 85mil SP Alt would win? If you say yes, I would kindly say you are wrong
and possible right.

Valkin is spec into cruisers. Can fly every single one near perfect.
So can the alt.
So even though the alt is from 2011. And this one is from 2013. You don't really know who will win. 1v1.

Does that make more sense now?

... which I said specifically in response to your "all the bittervets are just farming noobs", which was an obvious lie. Don't make **** up, and then claim that anyone correcting your obvious lie is in the wrong.





So the **** what? They have tons of fun doing that, why are you spitting at it? That's how newbies can be effective, or would you rather they just mine for the first year of playing the game?




Oh, bullshit.

The new player help channel exists, and just about anyone you ask about it will point you towards one of those groups.




Why should your definition of "good fight" be permitted to tie my hands? Or anyone else's? Why are you an emotional fascist, trying to force how you want to play the game on other people?

Because it isn't? It's always wanted interaction for at least one side.


Facewalling an SP wall is closer to a masochism than predisposition, and plenty of people have that.


Don't confuse your own goals. Your goal is a steady source of easy targets to grief dec. Which is why you don't like NPC corps.
Because they won't have bothered you in the slightest otherwise - nobody here advocated "handholding", and anyone can tell you in which safespot on your body you should stuff your armor fit drake of an opinion about how they should play.

People play for fun. If eve is fun for them, who are you to tell them to go away and have their fun anywhere else, when you are the main beneficiary of them having fun here? You already have unprecedented capabilities to steal the fun away from them, in fact, there are too many of them right now.

So what if they play like in a theme park game? "Press on this doll where gnome touched you" (c). They pay their subs, they pay your plex, show some appreciation.

Bottom line is, unless all you need is an easy target to grief, NPC corps won't have possibly bothered you. Because all they do is provide protection from just one way of being griefed. And unless you do it, you shouldn't care about it. And they don't decrease retention half as much as people like you do, if you actually care about them.

And here I will repeat the line which got routinely moderatorbiased out: The retention of people who are ready to be content in form of tolerating the process of repeatedly hitting their face against "SP wall" is already peak. The retention of people who do not wish to be bittervet food for their money is what's in trouble. There are only TWO types of content available to a newbie currently - mining and exploration, and both got rekt for the sake of nullsec retention already, so it's no freaking miracle that they couldn't possibly keep a newbie occupied for any reasonable period necessary to become involved. That's why NPSI crap is worthless, because losing ships sucks and newbies from not already-perfect-retention category would quit instantly on this. What's needed is more engaging content. Epic ark is pretty good, but it's short, and it's practically one-of-a-kind. New newbie anoms might be a good idea, but I haven't seen them yet to make sure. But as long as there are only 2 rekt professions remain a regular-game-mid-term or eve-short-term choices for a newbie not wishing to be a bittervet food, the retention is going to suffer. Either we need to unrekt those (not happening to mining, don't know about exploration), or introduce new ones.

Yeah, there's no pvp in lowsec or nullsec. It's a myth.

None of which really has much to do with the topic.

We can't? (scratches head in confusion) Then what's all this PvP I and my fleet have been engaging in? While at the same time welcoming newbies who stop by, even chatting in NPC corp chat? Stop by Syndicate a week from Saturday, you'll see a sizeable fleet of NPC corp members, newbies and veterans alike, engaging in a ton of PvP, blowing stuff up and being blown up and having a great time at it.



Definitely.



Not at all.

No it doesn't.

There is a finite of SP that will go into Cruiser and fitting skills.

A 100mil SP Will not have EVERY ship at his disposal. I have over 15bil in Hard assets. But I have to go TO those assets to use them. If I'm roaming. I DO NOT have access to them. Why is that so hard to understand? NOT every fight happens on the undock. Not ever fight I'm in a ship I'm perfectly spec in.


Also I have 35mil, I don't pay attention to SP counter, because I know it's not relevant.

I have a lot of things in a certain Trade hub, your probably right there.

Asides from that. and being completely asides the point, and being low blow...bastard. Also if you can't do the math then your purely speculation is just that speculation. I can fly every cruiser near perfect. From Cerb to Zealot. By near perfect it's mean the weapon specialization but that 2% is bullshit I don't wanna deal with,

You are ignoring that fact that I don't have 60 bowheads following me at all times. Why is that hard to understand? Stop cherry picking and realize when to comes to a point. SP ceases to matter, if you truly believe that SP is a critical part of Combat, I'm very sorry but it's keep you from getting better.

I didn't state that. NPC corps are still social, a newish player in a one man corp is a very lonely way to play EVE.



We might know that player corps offer more than that but to a huge number of highsec players all they see the risk of wardecs and no reward for facing that risk. In reality the chances of being wardeced is slim to non but these people belive that it will happen on a bi-weekly basis. To them they see the 1% less tax as simply not worth it. If NPC corps had 20% tax then the reward is more clear to them.

90% of new players leave the game in their first 30 days. The status quo isn't very successful.

What's wrong with CCP aiming, not to force anyone into a player corp, but to create an environment where that group is able to more easily find the type of content that the other 10% move into?

That is not only player corp focused. That's just one thing that correlates with higher retention. CCP have stated several times the types of activities that correlate with players subscribing beyond 30 days including a higher use of chat channels, trading on the market, taking part in fleets, being involved in combat pvp, using voice comms, using contracts. It's not that these things aren't done within npc starter corps, it's more that the nature of starter corps doesn't provide an environment where these things are part of being in the corp for all players. Many of these things are more likely to occur naturally in player Corps.

CCP isn't out to limit your individual choice. That you subscribed and are happy in an NPC Corp is great. However there's nothing wrong with CCP also trying to retain the part of that 90% that would stay if they can more easily find the type of content that correlates with higher retention.

This whole thing isn't about any of us that subscribe and become long term players. There's no need to encourage us to cross over or do anything different. It's about trying to get a slice of that 90% for whom that initial experience isn't engaging enough.

On the first part, CCP's data suggests otherwise and even if it didn't, it doesn't matter.

CCP have said that players who take part in more social aspects early have higher retention. That was the correlation they have referred to. That includes many aspects other than pvp. Market trading, using chat channels, taking part in fleets, combat pvp, manufacturing and selling, using voice comms have all been stated by CCP as types of activities that retained players take part in early and CCP are interested in trying to expose that 90% of unretained players to those kinds of experiences.

There is nothing about a new player Corp or the old tutorials that exposed players to that. New players try the game and end up playing solo without structures around them that actively encourage trying those more social activities that some of them might like.

That's where the move to player Corps is one way that CCP have also stated, provides greater exposure to those things. Being in a player Corp isn't itself a cause for higher retention. Player corps however do have much higher rates of use of voice comms, use of chat channels, fleet operations, pvp activities, industry activities, etc., especially when compared to starter corps.

Some starter Corps also have many of those things (eg. CAS), but it's not part of what the structure of a starter corp is in comparison to what is acheived in the organisation of player Corps many of which also go way beyond that with irc servers, slack teams, forums, wikis, new player starter kits, skill plans, training sessions, teamspeak, mumble, buyback programs, fitted ship contracts, 1-on-1 mentors, instructional videos, ship replacement programs for new players and specific targets they aim for.

Starter Corps provide minimal input to helping people find that sort of content, where player Corps often include all of that content.

So it's not about player corps as such. If starter corps provided that environment as part of what they did, then the idea of encouraging people to move to player corps wouldn't need to be considered. But they don't, where player corps provide that opportunity that CCP are trying to encourage (as stated by CCP).

On the second part, I totally agree. Kind of what this is all about.

If, for example, wars could not be dodged, and people were forced to use the surrender mechanic as it was intended.

Within half a year, the highsec corps that were left would be ones that you know have passed the test, and could be counted on to be worthwhile to their members.

Pointing people towards good corps is all well and good as an idea, but enabling the removal of the oh-so-many bad corps from the pool is far more important.

Not with an attitude like yours, no.

Everyone else is welcome.

See this is a valid counter point. I agree 100%. This side of the npc/highsec debacle is completely abused, and needs to be addressed in a productive manner.

Risk vs reward purely reflects against income generating activities.

The issue causing the butting of heads now seems to be the idea that the CCP employee in Rise's story should, by some viewpoints, be barred from leaving his NPC corp, or at least from starting a corp even for like minded pilots unless dramatically changing to a more confrontational response to aggression such as a wardec.

Basically one party is saying that because that is not the optimal course, alongside possibly some other information, one following that course should not be allowed to make or be in a corp.

It already does, that's what the Loot Fairy is for in the first place.

But income generating activities, those things that you can do that add assets into the game world, those are what risk vs reward primarily targets.

It exists to combat rampant inflation, because the economy is driven by loss.

The answer is nerf high sec so that everyone can get in on the action and start shooting unarmed industrial ships to give them more competition.

Not sure if you're serious. Hisec PVP is an environment where there are predators who themselves are not prey to other predators (for the most part). The option to gank gankers has always been open, and with -5 sec status and below any pilot can freely engage a ganker with no repercussions (except retaliation by an elite PVPer!).

These predators are hunting prey who do not scout their gates, tank their ships, or follow any one of the hundreds of writeups and forum posts you can find to avoid getting ganked.

Do you know why a ganker does not tank his ship against aggression from another player? Because the player base has shown itself to be too timid to proactively aggress the ganker (instead of waiting for GCC to kick in).

Player vs. player is "insanely easy" because other players have created this situation. It has nothing to do with the rules as they exist.

NPC Corps are fine.

It's really a case of casualism and/or min/max.
Many of the people that test Eve, likely have come from another MMO.
Their experience, prior to Eve, revolved around games with zones that are dedicated to non-PVP without consent.
They are also familiar with level grinding, which in many games, can get you from newb to end game content in a month.
As we are all aware, this is not the case in Eve.
There is no end game content and there is no option for pure safety.

That said,'I am NOT suggesting a change for the formula in order to support this.
The market would fall apart as most players, including those with alts in high, would gravitate their characters towards this area.

However, I do not support the alternative of taking away safety, as it is. This would not only deter new players, but would likely cause the dropping of many so to say "carebears" as well as cause alt accounts to drop, due to lack of safer gameplay.

As far as retention of players, both new and old, I think this is an issue of two cases.
1) community - There's got to be social interaction. This is not an issue of corps(player or NPC), but instead the fault of the players.
We have essentially built a barrier inhibiting player interaction. Remember the Eve Moto of "Trust no one"? Well, this has the alternate effect of inhibiting the social interaction with new players. Not very many people want to help a new bro, as you can't trust them.

2) Content - we're all aware that it takes a bit of time to become efficient at combat. This leaves mining as the most effective activity a newbro can involve themselves in for at least the first two weeks. Even after that, their combat efficiency is extremely limit. However, once you've developed efficient combat skills, you still likely have developed funding, so PVP involvement is extremely limited, unless you manage to get into an alliance with a ship hand out program.
If you do manage to get interest from an alliance, there's about a 50-50 chance that you're being baited.

Content can be corrected by providing more low level and high level content in all security areas.

As far as community, well... Eve players are a$$holes...

You solve a player created problem with other players. Specifically, those gankers and wardeccers you so despise.

Bad corps should die on the vine, but in the ridiculous safety that is highsec, that's far too difficult to do. Incentivize conflict, make it more accessible and more widespread, and watch these bad corps die.

Wardecs are content.

More like it's rather hard to juggle overheats and active reps with an infant on my lap, but push whatever narrative you two desire. I did have a rather bracing time in Squiddie FW space the other day, but not on this guy, his Gallente standings aren't good enough to join. I have to have Diplo to max just to enter their space anymore.

Although it is rather fun to see a dedicated forum alt play at **** measuring with killboards.

Getting blown up is content every bit as much as blowing up someone else.

No, I'm really not. My dumb ass lost an Ashimmu to a corp we decced the other day just a few hours ago, and it was still content, I still had fun, and I still acknowledged their "gf" in local. That's called playing the game, and being a good sport.

In other news, as mentioned before, trying to play EVE with a baby on your lap is tricky.

I don't use any, I never have.

It shouldn't even surprise me that someone like you can't figure out that fun isn't measured in isk.